BAIA Link

BAIA Link, the Online Community of BAIA Members & Friends

Is there a real need for a Certificate of Citizenship ?

Dear BAIA friends,

Me and my wife (both Italian)  became US citizen after 5 year from our green card a couple of years ago.

One my child was born in USA and was already a Citizen. The other two boys were born in Italy and became citizen together with me and my wife.

We all hold American passports but during the naturalization ceremony we were "invited" to file n-600 for both our children ("just to be safe", "you never know"). Needless to say, they were not very convincing and, at a $600 each, I was trying to find a good reason to do so.

Internet searches did not help much either. There is this weird feeling of "just to be safe", but no real explanation of why should (or should not) be done.

I am counting on BAIA's collective wisdom to hopefully find a satisfactory answer to my conundrum:

Should we byte the bullet and spend $1,200 "just to be safe" (?!?!?!) or not.

Thanks in advance.

Bets regards,
Max

 

Views: 256

Replies to This Discussion

Hold your horses  - come dicono qui. Aspetta che mi assicuro con i miei colleghi e ti rispondo io. Ma mi sembra ovvio che uno con un passaporto USA  ha solo da mostrare quel documento per essere riconosciuto in qualsiasi buco del mondo e certamente anche qui in paese.

Cordialita a te alla tua famiglia

Antonio Fiorentino Di Stefano

Avvocato USA

Caro Max:

The following is a survey I did of Immigration lawyers.  None of the attorneys who responded know who you are - only the facts of the situation. None of what they say or I say is legal opinion to guide any decision. You are on your own. Should you wish me to direct you to  immigration lawyers in your city - I shall try to do so. You will find that when your question is put to a bunch of immigration lawyers there is no conclusive opinion

================================================================================

 It is likely that they will need the Certificate of Citizenship some time in their life.  Some government agencies, such as social security, will require either a US birth certificate, Naturalization Certificate or Certification of Citizenship to award benefits. They will not accept a US passport.  It is better to get the Certificate of Citizenship now.  

Cathy M. Shibley
Attorney

 -------------------------------------------------------------

A Certificate of Citizenship is permanent evidence of U.S. citizenship. A
passport is temporary evidence.

Michael E Piston, Attorney
 
----------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Antonio:

I can think of two reasons.  Not necessarily "good," but the current
reality.

1. According to a USCIS representative at a conference about E-Verify, a
child who is in the system as a lawful permanent resident, and becomes a
U.S. citizen by virtue of the parent naturalizing, will not be in the SAVE
system as a U.S. citizen until USCIS issues the N-600.  I think that's
outrageous, but ...

2.  The Social Security Administration does not accept a U.S. passport
alone as proof that a person is a U.S. citizen.  So if the children need to
collect benefits, they will need the N-600s as part of the documentation.

Best regards.

Leslie

Leslie K. Dellon
L. Dellon Immigration Law, LLC

What is SAVE? Check it


USCIS SAVE
http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac8924...
-------------------------------------------------

See the big picture. And first principle is to protect the litle ones. Pay attention to the other posts and spend the money. I would sure do it if they were my kids.

Another attorney

=================================================

My client specifically requested the certificates for her two daughters having received a naturalization certificate for herself and having gone through the ceremony which she found very moving.  She was disappointed when I told her her daughters might not be able to have such a ceremony when they get their certificates and could get sworn in by the local officer.   I think you should tell your client of the option and if it makes no matter to them, go for the passports.  I was thinking the same way as you but then realized I was viewing this through my own jaded eyes.  Others see the honor and privilege behind achieving American citizenship and having the document (other than a passport) to prove it.

Best, Barbara, Attorney
---------------------------------------------------

 It is likely that they will need the Certificate of Citizenship some time in their life.  Some government agencies, such as social security, will require either a US birth certificate, Naturalization Certificate or Certification of Citizenship to award benefits. They will not accept a US passport.  It is better to get the Certificate of Citizenship now.  

Cathy M. Shibley
Attorney

 -----------------------------------------------------

I also heard a rumor that, after the first US passport issued to the child expires, the passport office requires a Cert of Citizenship for the renewal. I do not have any actual evidence of that requirement.
 
Michael Sharon
----------------------------

The USCIS website states:

"Proof of U.S. Citizenship and Identification When Applying for a Job

Your U.S. passport is your best proof of U.S. citizenship."

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f6...

By regulation, statute and BIA decision:

An unexpired U.S. passport is proof of U.S. citizenship.

Footnote 27: 8 C.F.R. § 204.1(g)(1)(ii), (iii).

Unexpired U.S. passports and consular registrations of birth abroad must
be accepted as proof of U.S. citizenship. 28

Footnote 28: 22 U.S.C. § 2705.

An unexpired U.S. passport, not void on its face, is not subject to
collateral attack and constitutes conclusive proof of the holder’s U.S.
citizenship. 29

Footnote 29: Matter of Villanueva, 19 I. & N. Dec. 101 (BIA 1984); see
also 22 U.S.C. § 2705 (must have the maximum validity period allowed by
law).

Source: Gordon, Mailman & Yale-Loehr, Immigration Law and Procedure,
Vol. 4, Sec. 41.01[2][b].

************

In the face of all of that clear law, how could DHS or any other agency
demand anything more than an unexpired U.S. passport?

I would like to know more about the context in which "Immigration" is
demanding certificates of citizenship. Although it does not hurt to
obtain those certificates as a permanent record, I don't see how it can
be required.--Bruce Hake Attorney
============================================================================

I don't think it can be "required," either--but sometimes bureaucracies don't follow the law, they follow their own rules.  Until someone successfully sues them--which one could potentially do under 8 USC 1503 or a few other statutes--they continue to make up their own rules.

Margaret Stock, Attorney

=============================================================================

We had a discussion on this listserv a while back about how SSA believes that an L-2 spouse is eligible to work "incident to status" w/o EAD, while USCIS insists EAD is required.  Different agencies have their own (often unreasonable; sometimes unlawful) standards.  If SSA tends to insist on document other than passport, I agree w/ Margaret -- it's easier to just get the darn certificate than to litigate.    But even more than that, the possibility that a person with a passport who isn't in the relevant database because s/he never got citizenship certificate might still wind up being improperly detained -- or even removed -- by ICE pretty much seals the deal for me.  What's the cost/benefit value of spending $600 vs. that horrible possibility?   

Paul D. Cass, Esq. Los Angeles, CA 90010
===========================================================

Caro Max:

Like they say: you cannot get a bunch of lawyers in a room to agree to anything

Ma come vedi la palla e rimasta ferma in campo tuo. Se non per legge forse per amore e cautela bisognera fare.
Voi avete gia fatto una grande cosa per il futuro dei vostri figli. Forse un'altro piccolo sacrificio ...

Come uno che fu naturalizzato USA ( mai avuto un Certificate of Citizenship) e che eventualmente fu invitato a riacquistate la cittadinanza Italiana diventando dual citizen - raccomando sempre di non bruciare il ponte con l'Europa. I tempi stanno cambiando e nel corso della vita dei tuoi figli potrebbero trovare opportunita anche in Europa. Inform yourself on present Italian law.

Auguri per la tua famiglia

Antonio Fiorentino Di Stefano

Carissimo Antonio,

Prima di tutto, un grazie sentito per tutto l'aiuto e per il coinvolgimento dei tuoi colleghi.

Trovo molto interessante come vi siano posizioni abbastanza discordanti, il che rafforza la mia minuscola convinzione che sia una di quelle cose da fare "just in case" so that you can sleep at night and not regret it later...

Putroppo, per quache motivo tecnico, il tuo commento finale mi e' giunto troncato nella parte destra.

Ti sarei estremamente grato se potessi rispedirmelo come "articolo" singolo.

Grazie ancora a te e a tutti i colleghi.

Auguri anche a te e alla tua famiglia.

Cordialmente,

Max

Aggiungo la mancata entrata di un'altro avvocato, e il mio commento:
--------------------------------------------------------
We had a discussion on this listserv a while back about how SSA believes that an L-2 spouse is eligible to work "incident to status" w/o EAD, while USCIS insists EAD is required. Different agencies have their own (often unreasonable; sometimes unlawful) standards. If SSA tends to insist on document other than passport, I agree w/ Margaret -- it's easier to just get the darn certificate than to litigate. But even more than that, the possibility that a person with a passport who isn't in the relevant database because s/he never got citizenship certificate might still wind up being improperly detained -- or even removed -- by ICE pretty much seals the deal for me. What's the cost/benefit value of spending $600 vs. that horrible possibility?
Paul D. Cass, Esq. 3055 Wilshire Blvd., Ste. 900 Los Angeles, CA 900
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caro Max:

Like they say: you cannot get a bunch of lawyers in a room to agree to anything

Ma come vedi la palla e rimasta ferma in campo tuo. Se non per legge forse per amore e cautela
bisognera fare. Voi avete gia fatto una grande cosa per il futuro dei vostri figli. Forse un'altro
piccolo sacrificio ...

Come uno che fu naturalizzato USA ( mai avuto un Certificate of Citizenship) e che eventualmente
fu invitato a riacquistate la cittadinanza Italiana diventando dual citizen - raccomando sempre
di non bruciare il ponte con l'Europa. I tempi stanno cambiando e nel corso della loro vita i tuoi figli
potrebbero trovare altre opportunita anche in Europa. Inform yourself on present Italian law on dual
citizenship.

Auguri per la tua famiglia

I am uploading an article by one of the lawyers mentioned above that explains that yours is a major
problem experienced by many newly naturalize families and their lawyers. The author is considering filing
a class action lawsuit to have this problem resolved. As you can read the problem is partly caused by
the involvement of computers. The SAVE network that alerts all agencies and law enforcement personnel
of the immigration status of an individual is only updated to show your kids new status upon the filing
and adjudication of the N-600. Hypothetically your kids could arrive at a check point - find their
passport missing, and SAVE will show they are not yet citizens and possibly in illegal status. Then the
Certificate of Citizenship would resolve the question. This is a problem caused by bureaucratic
procedures that most lawyers feel are contrary to established law - and it is an expensive and unnecessary
expense to the applicants. I think the class action lawsuit will solve the problem.

Antonio






Attachments:

Adesso mi stan rompendo le palle - proviamo un'altra volta

--------------------------------------------------------
We had a discussion on this listserv a while back about how SSA believes that an L-2 spouse is eligible to work "incident to status" w/o EAD, while USCIS insists EAD is required. Different agencies have their own (often unreasonable; sometimes unlawful) standards. If SSA tends to insist on document other than passport, I agree w/ Margaret -- it's easier to just get the darn certificate than to litigate. But even more than that, the possibility that a person with a passport who isn't in the relevant database because s/he never got citizenship certificate might still wind up being improperly detained -- or even removed -- by ICE pretty much seals the deal for me. What's the cost/benefit value of spending $600 vs. that horrible possibility?
Paul D. Cass, Esq. 3055 Wilshire Blvd., Ste. 900 Los Angeles, CA 900
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Caro Max:

Like they say: you cannot get a bunch of lawyers in a room to agree to anything

Ma come vedi la palla e rimasta ferma in campo tuo. Se non per legge forse per amore e cautela
bisognera fare. Voi avete gia fatto una grande cosa per il futuro dei vostri figli. Forse un'altro
piccolo sacrificio ...

Come uno che fu naturalizzato USA ( mai avuto un Certificate of Citizenship) e che eventualmente
fu invitato a riacquistate la cittadinanza Italiana diventando dual citizen - raccomando sempre
di non bruciare il ponte con l'Europa. I tempi stanno cambiando e nel corso della loro vita i tuoi figli
potrebbero trovare altre opportunita anche in Europa. Inform yourself on present Italian law on dual
citizenship.

Auguri per la tua famiglia

I am uploading an article by one of the lawyers mentioned above that explains that yours is a major
problem experienced by many newly naturalize families and their lawyers. The author is considering filing a class action lawsuit to have this problem resolved. As you can read the problem is partly caused by the involvement of computers. The SAVE network that alerts all agencies and law enforcement personnel of the immigration status of an individual is only updated to show your kids new status upon the filing and adjudication of the N-600. Hypothetically your kids could arrive at a check point - find their passport missing, and SAVE will show they are not yet citizens and possibly in illegal status. Then the Certificate of Citizenship would resolve the question. This is a problem caused by bureaucratic procedures that most lawyers feel are contrary to established law - and it is an expensive and unnecessary expense to the applicants. I think the class action lawsuit will solve the problem.

Antonio


RSS

Events

BAIA Photos


www.flickr.com

Badge

Loading…

© 2017   Created by BAIA LINK.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service